Esos Grupos Beta operando en Beslan

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leonpro
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Re: Muy buen analisis

Mensaje por leonpro »

Zaragoza escribió:Benjamin Netanyahu de fuerzas especiales y operaciones antiterroristas entiende mucho por su paso de 5 años por el Sayeret Matkal o su participación en la Operación Isotopo que permitió la liberación de un avión Boieng 707 de la compañía belga Sabena en el aeropuerto de Tel AViv. En dicha operación ademas de Netanyahu participaron Ehud Barak (ex primer ministro de Israel), Danny Yatom (ex director general del Mossad).

Si el dice eso sobre la unidad ALFA, será por algo. El Teatro Dubrovka o Beslan son situaciones excepcionales, incomparables a algo que hayamos vivido en la Europa Occidental.

Muy bueno el analisis de Temple (MUCHAS FELICIDADES)

En un post del foro se escribió sobre la opinión de la NSA sobre un posible asalto a la embajada británica en Beirut realizado por el SAS. La opinión de la NSA era que la UEI había desarrollado un mejor plan táctico que los del SAS. ¿Alguien tiene más datos sobre aquel hecho?

UN SALUDO
¿donde esta esa opinion?puedes poner el enlace,porfavor


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iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Muy buenas fotos! gracias
QuickBasik_Geo

" Alfa "

Mensaje por QuickBasik_Geo »

Haber... Las fotos son mu chulas pero hay un problema... TODAS las fotos que hay arriba no son ni de Alfa ni Beta ni Vympel.

1) Ellos nunca enseñan la cara.. sus rostros siempre aparecen enmascarados.
2) Tienen un uniforme especial tanto para entrenamientos como para actuar en una mision.
3) Para reconocer a un miembro " Alfa " se le reconoce por la espalda.
Siempre llevan Escrito en la espalda en ruso Alfa.
Ademas se creo en 1969 y no en el 73.
Los oficiales son los Alfa y no los Beta. Son 4 años carrera militar , despues te tiene que elegir el FSB , pasar pruebas psiquicas y fisicas durisimas durante 3 años y despues intentar entrar.

Todas las fotos de arriba son de distintos grupos " Spetsnaz ".
Gracias
[/i]
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Pocho_IBERO
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Registrado: 21 Ago 2005
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Mensaje por Pocho_IBERO »

Estos rusos me parece a mi q cada uno se compra el unifomrme en soldier tio no os dais cuenta q cada uno va de un color es nada mas q verlos t dan ganas de desconfiar de su profesionalidad q despues se termino aclarando de q muy profesionales no deben de ser cuando en el teatro se cargaron mas inocentes q terroristas y beslsan mas niños y bebes q terroristas
Asi q si tuviera la oportunidad de hablar con el señor putin le diria¨señor presidente cada vez q tenga situaciones como esta llame usted a españa q sus unidades le dan 3000 vueltas a las suyas y tiene donde elegir desde militares como C.O.E.,ect
hasta policiales como nuetro magnifico y por mi admirado G.E.O. ,hagame el favor q consiste en salvar rehenes no en matar terroristas a cualquier precio,Hombre¨

Saludos Señores Nos Bmo
Cuando vayas por el campo
no pises las amapolas
que están sembradas con sangre
de guerrillas españolas
Temple

Re: " Alfa "

Mensaje por Temple »

QuickBasik_Geo escribió:Haber... Las fotos son mu chulas pero hay un problema... TODAS las fotos que hay arriba no son ni de Alfa ni Beta ni Vympel.

1) Ellos nunca enseñan la cara.. sus rostros siempre aparecen enmascarados.
2) Tienen un uniforme especial tanto para entrenamientos como para actuar en una mision.
3) Para reconocer a un miembro " Alfa " se le reconoce por la espalda.
Siempre llevan Escrito en la espalda en ruso Alfa.
Ademas se creo en 1969 y no en el 73.
Los oficiales son los Alfa y no los Beta. Son 4 años carrera militar , despues te tiene que elegir el FSB , pasar pruebas psiquicas y fisicas durisimas durante 3 años y despues intentar entrar.

Todas las fotos de arriba son de distintos grupos " Spetsnaz ".
Gracias
[/i]
Ya se ha indicado que muchas fotos no corresponden a oficiales de los grupos Alfa y Vympel; pero eso de que ninguna de las fotos corresponde a oficiales de ambos grupos es algo distinto. Sobre todo cuando alguna de esas fotos se puede encontrar en webs de sus asociaciones de veteranos, prensa especializada rusa (en operaciones especiales) e incluso hasta en servidores de agencias de la propia Federación Rusa, como el FSB.

Las razones que das no sé como calificarlas.

1) ¿Qué intentan no mostrar sus caras?. Lógico; pero no siempre les es posible. En fotos oficiales en entrenamientos, se intentará proteger su identidad siempre que sea posible; pero ¿se puede impedir que la prensa consiga una foto de uno de ellos en una operación real si actua a cara descubierta?. Existen bastantes fotos del oficiales del Alfa y Vympel en distintas intervenciones reales, sesiones de entrenamiento, etc. en las que no todos llevan pasamontañas. Más abajo tendrás algunos ejemplos ...

2) ¿Qué tienen un uniforme especial tanto para entrenamientos como para operaciones reales?. En fin .... :) .... yo, diría que tienen unos cuantos, de hecho se pueden encontrar fotos de ellos nuevamente tanto en operaciones reales como durante entrenamientos "luciendo" desde distintos tipos de BDUs camuflados (uno de los últimos: el Partizan; pero también Gorka-R/S, etc.) hasta BDUs monocromo negros o azules. De todas formas, la identificación de un determinado tipo de uniforme no asegura la identificación del portador sin información adicional.

3) ¡No sé de donde sacas que los miembros del grupo Alfa siempre llevan uniformes con el rótulo «АЛЬФА» en la espalda!. Sobre todo cuando hablamos de una unidad que en contra de otras unidades o grupos antiterroristas occidentales tiene un espectro de misiones mucho más amplio. ¿Acaso crees que en la República Autónoma de Chechenia los integrantes del Alfa operan con dicho rótulo sobre su espalda?. ¿Llevaban dicho rótulo en las operaciones de Budennovsk y Dubrovka?. Va a ser que no!. ; )

En Beslán, dónde algunos de ellos entraron en combate incluso sin protecciones balísticas (chalecos y cascos) en cuestión de minutos en reacción a los acontecimientos. ¿También llevaban el rótulo en la espalda? ¿No salieron en las fotos?. ¿Quizás los miembros de las unidades a los que fotografió Dima Beliakov le mintieron y no eran oficiales del "Alfa"? :dpm:

En relación a los comentarios (tan profundos!) de Pocho_IBERO. SI!, TOTALMENTE DE ACUERDO!!! A mi también me gustaría que nuestros integrantes del GEO, UEI, GOE, etc. volasen y fuesen super-hombres capaces de resolver estas cosas mejor que en las películas de Hollywood. :-X (matando menos rehenes que terroristas ...). Lo que hay que leer ... :dpp:

Un par de fotos de los funerales, no vaya a ser que lo siguiente que leamos sea que ellos no estuvieron allí ...

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Por poner un ejemplo: ¿Quizás en el famoso episodio enfrente a la "Casa Blanca" (El Parlamento ruso) en Moscú en 1993 cuando los integrantes del grupo Alfa arrojaron las armas al suelo frente a los amotinados en señal de negociación, también se habían dejado el rótulo: «АЛЬФА» en casa?

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Otro ejemplo, un oficial en una estación de tren a punto de marchar para una misión en Chechenia:

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Otro ejemplo, otro oficial Alfa, esta vez en traje de faena con perro incluido (se ve el parche "A"):

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Otro ejemplo de uno de esos profesionales que nunca muestra la cara, esta vez con nombre: Leonid Vladimirovic (uno de los mandos):

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Más ejemplos, en esta foto se ven los momentos posteriores a uno de los muchos asaltos exitosos del grupo Alfa sobre un autobus secuestrado con rehenes (a pesar de la mala calidad, se aprecia como ninguno de los operativos lleva ningún rótulo en la espalda):

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Imágenes de Dubrovka, en las que se pueden ver a miembros de "A" y "V" (la segunda foto se publicó entre otros medios en una revista Time que tengo en papel con un pie de foto que dice: los oficiales del grupo Alfa desmontan sus armas tras un espectacular asalto en el que han eliminado a decenas de terroristas sin sufrir una sola baja)

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Una foto de tirador del grupo Alfa con AI AWP (en los entrenamientos es normal lucir gorritas con el logo "A", la camiseta ... :) )

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En la siguiente se ve el parche "A" que NO siempre lucen cuando la cosa va en serio y no se están entrenando (por cierto, parche en versión baja visibilidad):

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Y una foto que según la Asociación de veteranos de "A" corresponde a oficiales Alfa en operaciones en Chechenia. ¿Tampoco serán ellos? (lo digo por lo de las caras y ...)

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A continuación las bajas mortales de los grupos Alfa y Vympel del TSSN del FSB en Beslán, junto a una breve descripción de las circunstancias en torno a su muerte (en inglés, sorry!)

(las fotos individuales han sido distribuidas por las organizaciones de veteranos de los grupos Alfa y Vympel (Spetsnazs del KGB/FSB), junto con el siguiente mosaico, también elaborado por dichas organizaciones en el que se ve claramente a algunos de sus miembros en combate y un mensaje escrito por habitantes de Beslán en el que se da las gracias a Alfa y Vympel)

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En las siguientes fotos de los oficiales muertos en acto de servicio en Beslán, Osetia del Norte, se puede ver como usan distintos tipos de uniformes acordes a la actividad a realizar (lógico por otra parte). Se puede apreciar como tanto en el caso de Alfa como Vympel, el Partizan está entre ellos.

The Directorate "A" of the Special Purpose Centre of Russian Federal Security Service (Alfa)

Major Aleksandr Perov:

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Team Leader. Was supporting the evacuation of children. Covered three kids with his own body when a grenade went off. Sustained terminal injuries but right until his death he continued to command the team.


Major Vyatcheslav Malyarov

Shielded his comrades from the terrorist fire with his own body. While mortally wounded, didn't leave the fight, wounded two terrorists and stopped their advance.

Warrant Officer Oleg Loskov

When a group of terrorists attempted to break out of the school building while covering themselves with hostages, he stood in their way saving the hostages and covering them with his own body. Sustained terminal injuries but did not leave the fight, up until his death he continued to provide fire support for the team.

Izquierda y derecha, respectivamente:

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The Directorate "V" of the Special Purpose Centre of Russian Federal Security Service (Vympel)

Subcolonel Dmitry Razumovsky

(casualmente vistiendo BDU Partizan, el mismo con el que actuaron en Beslán)

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Took the point and was the first to storm into the room from where the terrorists were shooting at the hostages. Sustained terminal injuries.

Subcolonel Oleg Illin

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Was covering childrent and a wounded MChS officer by drawing the terrorists' fire onto himself. Received a shrapnel injury but didn't leave the fight. When a group of terrorists attempted to flee, stopped them with fire, eliminating two of them before he was killed. By sacrificing his life he saved the other members of the assault team.

Major Andrey Velko

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Was in the first assault team. Received mortal wounds covering the hostages.

Major Roman Kasatonov

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Took on two terrorist armed with a machine gun while saving children from the basement of the school and was killed.

Major Mikhail Kuznetsov

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Evacuated 20 wounded hostages, mainly children. Was providing cover for the assault team. Took on two terrorists, eliminated both but himself succumed to his injuries.

Leutenant Andrey Turkin, 1975

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Información no disponible!


Warrant Officer Denis Pudovkin, 1976

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Was carrying out wounded children under fire. Then entered the building with the assault team, while covering a female hostage eliminated a terrorist but sustained terminal injuries himself.
Temple

Mensaje por Temple »

leonpro escribió:
¿donde esta esa opinion?puedes poner el enlace,porfavor
Leonpro,

la declaración del ex-primer ministro israelí la puso de ejemplo uno de los últimos mandos del grupo Alfa cuando en una entrevista para la prensa le preguntaron cual era el nivel del grupo Alfa en relación a otras unidades antiterrorisatas similares de primer nivel. Él constestó parafraseando a Benjamin Netanyahu.

Por cierto, que en una pregunta anterior, en la que le preguntaban que países tenían unidades al mismo nivel del grupo Alfa, el jefe del grupo en ese momento, contesta que todos aquellos países occidentales (los más industrializados) tienen niveles con una calidad semejante. En ese grupo estaríamos incluidos nosotros y por supuesto, con el G.E.O. y la U.E.I. entre los de cabeza!

Ahora no tengo a mano un link; pero la entrevista fue reproducida en diversos medios de la prensa rusa. Intentaré localizarla.

Un saludo,

Temple
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

La entrevista se encuentra en la página web:
www.fsb.ru
[url]

Lo k pasa, teneis k saber algo de cirilico, o usar un translator, buscar la palbra Alfa, o spetsnaz en cirilico!!

Aki os dejo algo, lo siento, pero no lo he traducido, con el tiempo, pasare todo esto en castellano con fotos!

Alexander Gusev (the former commander of antiterrorist division " Alpha ")
TO GROUP " ALPHA " - 30 YEARS

On July, 29th, 2004 fighters and veterans of "Alpha" will be going to note the 30 anniversary of the division. On traditions, which beginning it was necessary five years ago, will come on solemn gathering with wives, adult children. The sports, tightened men in strict civil suits - and the ring of crystal wine-glasses lost in solemn accompaniment of fighting awards... On a share general-lieutenant Alexander Vladimirovicha Gusev, supervised group " Alpha " in 1995 - 1999, most easy times have dropped out not.
You held a high post in the Kremlin. And suddenly you appoint the head of such special division, as "Alpha". It has not surprised you?

- On the one hand, the offer to head special division was for me unexpected. But with another - I the military person. Has ended Суворовское school, school of the Supreme body, military Academy of a name of Frunze and, according to that knowledge which has received, could order even about army... Has served in Kremlin a shelf, beginning from the commander of a platoon up to the chief of a staff a shelf, and before purpose in "Alpha" last six years were the assistant to the commandant of the Moscow Kremlin. At that time the commander of "Alpha" Gennady Nikolaevich Zajtsev has decided to finish military service and to retire. To me have suggested it to replace. I have asked couple of days to think, and have then agreeed.
- How you estimate those five years during which you had to supervise over group?

- Probably, each of commanders fairly considers, that the period when it supervised, was not the lung... I have come to 1995 and have served there about five years. To time measures - it is a little, but on performance of fighting operations which fall to a lot of special division, these years have appeared very sated. Budyonnovsk, May Day, captures of planes in Внукове, Sheremetev and Домодедове, capture of buses in Makhachkala and with the Korean tourists on Васильевском descent, events near the Swedish embassy where my assistant was lost, colonel Anatoly Savelyev.

- Events near the Swedish embassy caused many questions...

- Colonel Savelyev up to them participated in operation in Sheremetev and personally neutralized the terrorist. I then abused it for it because the chief of a staff should not afford unjustified risk. But character at Anatoly Nikolaevicha was those - always to be ahead.
After the message on capture of embassy it the first has arrived to a place of events and the first has begun negotiations with the terrorist about replacement of the foreign hostage on Russian. After painful five hours of negotiations the terrorist has jumped out of the machine. It became clear, that the situation leaves from under the control. I have given the order on carrying out of operation immediately. It was unique chance to rescue Anatoly Nikolaevicha, considering a condition of the terrorist which held in a hand to a pomegranate. When operation has been completed, to Anatoly on road to hospital "got" heart twice. In third time, already in hospital, it to make it was not possible. From its wounds has not poured out drops of blood. Physicians approve, that so happens only in case of cardiac arrest. Wounds of threat for a life did not represent.

- You consider what operations by the most significant in history of "Alpha"?

- Operations in Afghanistan, actions of employees of group in 1991 and 1993. Neutralization of the terrorists who have grasped "Northeast", special actions in the Chechen Republic.
- But in fact at a capture of "Northeast" many people were lost...

- 240 victims are much. But if the victim had been rendered medical aid immediately then there would be no so much victims. While all bore to an output while behind them have arrived while carried and accepted in hospitals, a lot of time is has left. It would be possible to develop medical aid in the nearest court yard... But in it there was no fault of employees of the Center of special purpose. Fighters of special divisions " Alphas " and "Pendant" went inside, knowing, that for ever can remain under ruins of the Palace of culture. For this tragedy those who in it is guilty should answer. But I do not like to judge operations in which did not accept participation.

- You have made what conclusions for yourselves after events in Pervomaisk?
Is was ordinary общевойсковой fight. Unique difference - presence of hostages. The most terrible, that was no necessary interaction between departments. It have proved both Budyonnovsk, and May Day. Each department tried to keep the people and technics. Unfortunately, at us sometimes it is accepted to judge operations as about successful or unsuccessful, that is not always fair in relation to "Alpha".

I do conclusions of each operation, being based that it замешена for a life and on blood of our employees. Therefore interaction and rigid subordination to the head of operation are especially important.

- You can tell more in detail about those days?

- Gangsters have mined a building of hospital in Kizlyar. There were both artillery shells, and explosion, certainly, would entail behind itself a plenty of victims and destructions. When we have arrived, the information has acted, that the column with terrorists and hostages has left hospital. We at all did not have a communication with those who has been involved in operation. As a matter of fact, we went on пятам this column and on militian blockhouses learned, it has passed or not. It speaks that we during this period did not have a sufficient interaction of law enforcement bodies, army, the Ministries of Internal Affairs and special divisions... The Course of operation in Pervomaisk has shown, that anybody from departments did not wish to incur the responsibility for carrying out of operation and tried to shift it on another.
When we have arrived to area of settlement May Day, terrorists with hostages were covered in houses. First us wished to direct to attack without support of aircraft and artillery. Then armies have agreed to carry out this problem. A problem in storm has incured the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Not division of internal armies, and divisions militian which have no neither experience, nor preparation on carrying out общевойсковых operations. It also has led to unjustified losses.

We offered the variant of the decision: to let out a column from May Day to the Chechen Republic and on road by own strength to neutralize terrorists - without support of divisions of the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. But, unfortunately, the offer was not accepted.

- Events in Budyonnovsk... It is difficult to forget the staff of the chronicle connected with this tragedy.

- We tried to explain to a management that it is impossible to storm hospital, and have presented calculations about consequences - how many can be lost people. Terrorists have grasped about two thousand hostages. I in many respects understand both Yeltsin's decision, and responsible carrying out of operation of Victor Erina, Sergey Stepashin and Nikolay Egorov. Conditions in city left from under the control. The city small, and almost at each inhabitant was in hostages relatives. This fact could lead to that people would go to release relatives. I also am assured and that we could finish adequately operation if the decision to let out terrorists was not accepted.

In Budyonnovsk we have taken, as a matter of fact, all problem in storm of hospital on ourselves. After the first attempt terrorists have let out women with newborn children and still the person hundred have managed independently to leave a place of an imprisonment.

The division of major Vladimir Solovova has got under cross fire. Most Соловову has torn off a hand, but it continued fight, having enabled to leave from under fire to the employees, has not got yet under a sight of the sniper. When all was over, I have declared, that I shall not leave anywhere, yet will not give a body of major Solovova. Our employees were torn it to pull out. But I understood, that there can be new victims. The chief of the regional Department of Internal Affairs has told: at me on полянке how many fighters lay. And I have answered it: " This business of your conscience. We do not throw the ". Results of operation in Budyonnovsk and Pervomaisk can be estimated differently. But those problems which were put before "Alpha", have been executed successfully.

What it is the heaviest to recollect?

- Messages to relatives about destruction of the person close to them. Natalia Savelyev till now cannot forgive me of destruction of the husband. To regret, but in "Alpha" there was 19-th victim. It has occured at attempt on Абрамова in the Chechen Republic. To the guy was only 21 year. Hard so to speak, but, fortunately, it did not have children.

- You the believing person?

- In the God I do not trust. I trust in reason. Besides I do not understand, when belief spread violently. And though I the person the believer, with the wife we have got married in that church in which Pushkin got married. From first marriage at me the daughter and the son. At them already the families. The wife too has an adult daughter. We together fifteen years. It has had with me the heaviest times.

- How you adapted in a civil life after leaving from "Alpha"?

- I for myself did not experience. I experienced for children. Has left division in uneasy conditions when reorganizations in FSB have begun. At association of structures in the Center of special purpose it was planned, that in "Alpha" there will be only a fighting division, and experts-demolition men, drivers and even those who operates a course of operation, will be involved from. I do not think, that this correct decision. Structure " Alpha ", ways of its functioning were developed within 25 years. In "Alpha" always there were the experts, capable to carry out necessary problems. When people beside every day, they understand each other without words. And any innovations could cost lives not only to them, their comrades, but also hostages. Now, fortunately, all became on the places.

- Whom from commanders you would note?

All of them worthy people. But Victor Fedorovicha Karpuhina whom already there is no with us, a received Hero of Soviet Union for operations on a capture of palace Амина, I would note especially. After events of 1991 it has left "Alpha". Карпухин has stayed in a reception of then chairman of KGB Бакатина for some hours, expecting conversation, but Бакатин at all has not accepted it.

- Who orders about such powerful division, as "Alpha", - that and authority. Such approach is true?

- Division tried to use as the tool of the decision of those or other political problems. I mean both 1991, and 1993. But to connect work of division with the decision of political problems it is impossible. Problems of "Alpha" is a struggle against terrorism and preservation of a life of hostages.

- It is possible to tell, what "Alpha" is a division of the present men?

- When I supervised over "Alpha", I was surprised with such thing: at the announcement of gathering patients or wounded men fighters gathered even - to participate in operation. It was necessary to send them back. When in 1995 I as the commander of "Alpha" began to get acquainted with fighters has understood that it is necessary to pray on these people. I think, it is possible to be proud of children who operate in "Alpha" today. There come not for the sake of money, and for the sake of idea.

The conversation was conducted by Natalia ЮНГВАЛЬД-ХИЛЬКЕВИЧ
Última edición por iaki el 19 Sep 2005, editado 1 vez en total.
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Un pokito mas :lol: :dpm:

GROUP " ALPHA "

If in the Book of records Гиннеса there was a section, devoted to counterspionages there, undoubtedly, would bring a name of our interlocutor. 20 years Vladimir Petrovich Pirozhkov worked as the vice-president of KGB of the USSR. So long anybody in one country did not hold so high post in special service. Vladimir Petrovich witnessed also the participant of the events influenced a course of history. It is no wonder, that a name of this person of the colleague say with greater respect, it reminds them of power of domestic special services which, would be desirable to think, not all растрачена.

Today the general-colonel in resignation of Century of Item of PIES, chairman of Advice of veterans of FSB, answers Valery Litvinova and Sergey Kredova's questions.

P.pie was born in 1924 in the city of Zmeinogorske of Altay territory. In May, 1942 the volunteer has left on front. War finished the commander of branch of 316-th Guards минометного Коростеньско-Померанского a shelf. Had wound. The participant of fights for clearing of Minsk, Warsaw, Berlin and parade of the Victory over Berlin.

After demobilization quickly rose on steps of political career in the homeland, on Altai. From a post of the second secretary Altay крайкома the CPSU by the decision of the Political bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU it is directed for work to bodies of a state security. In 1970 - 1990 was the vice-president of KGB of the USSR. Now is chairman of Advice of veterans of FSB. The general-colonel in resignation. Награжден 20 awards and 52 medals of our country and other states. Medals " For courage " - the first award received at the front, and " For valorous work " - the first civil award given for development virgin and laylands on Altai are especially dear to it.

Vladimir Petrovich, allow to begin with old memoirs. One of us could meet you during that time when heads of your rank seem absolutely not accessible. Business was in the end 1970. Then in the USSR has only just appeared karate. And here you, assistant JU.V.Antropov, have arrived to a sports hall "Dynamo" to look at demonstration performances on carat кекусинкай. Yours approval and the subsequent support in carat at a political level of a distance " green light " to this single combat. Hardly probable who from Bruce Li's present followers knows, that actually you were the neighboring father " oriental combat sports in our country. We correctly treat these events?

- I well remember an episode about which you speak. I shall tell about what you do not know.

My interest to fighting single combats was not casual. When to me have charged to supervise group " Alpha " - soon after its creation, - we have set as the purpose to make of it the best in the world division of anti-terror. For a reference point have taken German ГСГ-9. to "alpha" have allocated a premise, have put there the newest training units, work has begun. We have involved instructors of sambo-wrestling in combat training. But I felt, that sambo-wrestling - not absolutely that. Sambo-wrestling is effective against the hooligan with a knife. And we in fact prepared for very serious fighting operations. I shall notice, that firstly "Alpha" was created for protection against certificates of terror, first of all foreign embassies. At us practically on each embassy the plan of action in extreme situations has been created...

In the end of 70 me sent to Cuba. I many times met Fidel Castro. Somehow it to me has suggested to visit in them спецбригаде which participated in operations in Angola. And here I have gone there together with Minister of Internal Affairs of Cuba. Спецназовцы have lead demonstration performances - fighting karate against the automatic device with a bayonet, different kinds of the pricking and cutting weapon. On Cuba karate very long time ago were engaged. The island in fact before revolution was "night club" of the United States (with 100 thousand prostitutes, according to Fidel). And so, I was simply amazed with receptions of fighting karate. I at once have thought about our "Alpha". Has returned to Moscow, has reported about seen on Jury Vladimirovichu Antropov. It speaks: " I shall agree with Fidel that it has sent here group of the instructors ". Has agreed. Instructors have arrived, for two months have prepared our children duly. And as to the head Cubans have handed over me the certificate of the karateka of the first is given.

- It turns out, what you were the first diplomaed karateka in the Union?

- It turns out, that so. Should tell, that development of oriental combat sports in the Union has caused counteraction from the some people замов chairman of KGB. Unfortunately, in some years they managed to prepare the document on an interdiction on training in carat anywhere and everywhere. Karate it is has left in cellars...

- That you have told, Vladimir Petrovich, absolutely not known page of history of sports and special services in our country. And what important it is recollected to you today? What from made for 20 years delivers to you professional satisfaction?

- I had to be engaged, connected with our maximum defense. We have lead reconstruction of underground objects from which the government and militarians could supervise over the country during the special period. Objects on a level were the best in the world. It, certainly, a public child, but also mine too.

Much was engaged in the international affairs. When wars of China with Vietnam, Laos have begun, I took off for places of operations. Were at me and serious recruitments. We shall tell, it was possible to enlist the general of one southeast country.

I recollect also such operation of group " Alpha ". Business was so. The Soviet citizen has got Into the American embassy. It demanded to give to it a political asylum in the USA. In default threatened to start an explosive which was stored at it under clothes. Then at us warming attitudes between the countries was planned and explosion in embassy was extremely undesirable to both parties. Americans have addressed to Antropov, it has ordered to me to head counterterrorist operation. We have met the American ambassador, have discussed the order of interaction. They have let in embassy of two our employees - for the first time for all history of our attitudes. On me on a portable radio set reported conditions. The terrorist has already made the way under their technical floor. The situation became critical. I have reported on Jury Vladimirovichu that there is one output. Also has given the corresponding order.

Our employee from a pistol has amazed with a shot the terrorist. Then chairman of KGB has received the letter of thanks from the ambassador of the USA... Should you tell, give orders such very uneasy.

From operations of last years I shall mention clearing hostages in Sukhumi. Directly over her Victor Karpuhin supervised. Any hostage has not suffered. But children then strongly risked. I met them in air station.

- You have told, that it is heavy to give orders on destruction even if it is a question of the terrorist. You unique time could be given such order?

- In a peace time - once. And at the front... I served in investigation, in one of the best полков the USSR. And on "катюшах" was at war. We reconnoitered strengthenings, artillery positions of the opponent. During sorties necessarily collided with Germans. Especially жарко was in Berlin, in city fights. There who the first will shoot - that and alive. Pacifists did not survive.

When conversation has come about war, Vladimir Petrovich has got from a shelf the book about cousin to home-made beer Anatolii Petroviche Shestakov, it by the right is proud of whose feats of arms. Shestakov was the commander of guerrilla group " Nice ". This group generated from outstanding sportsmen "Dynamo", has been thrown for a front line. Its operations are noted in memoirs of marshals of Zhukov and Рокоссовского.

- A usted diez años era llevado más cerca comunicarse con J.V.Andropovym. Cuenten cualesquiera episodios, por que testimoniabais solamente. Sobre la tribuna Yury Vladimírovich parecía severo, incluso persona lúgubre. Él y en el modo de vida fue tal?
-
- That you, Jury Vladimirovich possessed excellent sense of humour. Especially often playful mood at it woke up, when broadcast hockey matches. It has been enamoured in hockey. Happened, invites in a room of rest, to us bring tea, it adds in tea лимонник, and we look game. It gave very amusing estimations to sportsmen. Certainly, was a fan of "Dynamo". I supervised this command. It, to our disappointment, could not win the championship in any way. By the way, know, to whom Antropov badly concerned? To trainer Tikhonov. That has suddenly distributed hearing, that KGB wished it to poison, because, say, "Dynamo" cannot win first place. Jury Vladimirovich when has heard, long was indignant and spoke: and I considered it the decent person.

Or such example. From the country sent Солженицына (the Central Committee, and at all KGB has insisted on it). I am in a cabinet at Antropov. Its assistant comes and informs, that by city phone poet Evtushenko calls. "Connect", - Jury Vladimirovich speaks. - " it drunk... " - " Anything, connect! " Antropov held a tube so that I could hear a voice called. Евтушенко has told: " If you will send Солженицына from the country, I shall arrive and I shall be hung up directly under your windows ". Jury Vladimirovich in the answer has burst out laughing: " Lindens at us greater and reliable enough, come, we shall not stir ". That has murmured something and has hanged up. Chairman of KGB with many "шестидесятниками" was in friendly attitudes.

But if to leave jokes... Know, how Jury Vladimirovich explained the reason of the illness of which it subsequently and has died? It and A.N.Kosygin have made a trip on the southeast countries where carried on sharp negotiations which have ended practically without results. Has hardly returned to Moscow as at it adrenal glands were ill, and then - kidneys. It believed, that it have poisoned during that voyage. Jury Vladimirovich many times spoke it to me. Attitudes at us before its leaving in the Central Committee were confidential. Called me by name, Володей.

- Today you head Advice of veterans of FSB. Tell about this organization.

By tradition before December, 20th each of managements of FSB spends meetings of veterans with operating employees. This practice also has begun our movement. There should not be a break between different generations of employees of a state security. Today our organization totals in Moscow and Moscow suburbs from above 20 thousand veterans. We work by the position approved on director of FSB. It is authorized to heads of counterprospecting divisions to involve with the same order veterans in operative work, preceptorship. All these "fighting" examples of cooperation contain in reports which subscribe heads of managements and annually lay down on a table to director of FSB. Business from a dead point has moved.

Earlier we marked a professional holiday of security officers in the departmental cultural center. During the stay of S.V.Stepashin director of FSB we for the first time have celebrated anniversary in the Kremlin Palace of congresses. This time again we shall gather in the Kremlin. I think, it has lifted authority of our authority in opinion of employees of special services.

- Thanks, Vladimir Petrovich, for interesting conversation. On behalf of readers of our newspaper we congratulate you and all your colleagues on Day of the worker of security service.

Often family saw?

- Sometimes. In day was a minimum on two trainings. Shooting, physical training. Plus of watch - for itself and for those who was in « hot points ». About it never spoke, but for 30 years "Alpha" has lead about thousand special actions.

- Can recollect any incident during service?

We have returned home after the Sukhumi storm, all such heroic, in gifts. The friend calls to me in 2 hours. At an entrance six drunk shout: « the Muzhik! Go, we shall understand! » It upset, also speaks: « I have escaped... » As could, I have calmed it. Correctly in fact has made - what for near the entrance of fools drunk to cripple.

- What it is accepted to drink in "Alpha"?

- All.
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Y un pokito mas :lol:

The historical information: Group " Alpha " of FSB of Russia

Group " And " of KGB of the USSR (subsequently Management "And" ЦСН FSB of Russia) is more known in the world under the name "Alpha". This special division first in our country on struggle against terrorism. "And" it is created 29.07.1974 years in structure of Committee of state security of the USSR under the initiative of Chairman of KGB of JU.V.Antropov. Since October 1991 - was a part of Management of protection at the Device of the president of the USSR (ГУО Russia); since September, 1995 - is in structure of FSB of the Russian Federation

Management is completed only with officers who are typed from the most skilled employees of divisions спецназначения federal enforcement authorities. Rigid demands (during selection about 90 % of candidates are eliminated) are made to physical and psychological qualities of candidates.

The first serious baptism of fire division has received 27.12.1979 years when employees of group together with group " Zenith " and at support of " the Muslim battalion " storm have seized presidential palace "Тадж-Бек" (Kabul, Afghanistan). In 1983-87 the staff "And" participated in operations in territory of Afghanistan. Employees spent operation on neutralization of terrorists and clearing of hostages in Sarapul (1981), Tbilisi (1983), Ufa (1986), Mineral Waters (1988, 1993, 2001), Sukhumi (1990), Moscow (Васильевский descent, 1995), Makhachkala (1995), Yerevan (1999), item Лазаревское of Sochi (2000). In July 1995 "And" it was involved in army operations on clearing hostages in a Budyonnovsk (Stavropol Territory) and With. Pervomaisk (Republic Dagestan). 26.10.2002 years fighters "And" in structure of the Center спецназначения have lead operation on clearing hostages in a building of the Theatrical center on Дубровке (Moscow). Since 1995 "And" participates in counterterrorist operation in the North-Caucasian region. For courage and the heroism shown at performance of a military duty, the majority of employees are noted by the state awards, to a two the rank " the Hero of Soviet Union ", to a five - " the Hero of Russia " (to a four from them - posthumously) is appropriated.

With 1992 the Association of veterans of special division of anti-terror "And", uniting former and operating employees operates "And".

Commanders "And": V.D.Bubenin (1974-77), R.P.Ivon (1977), G.N.hare (1977-88, 1992-95) V.F.Karpuhin (1988-91), M.B.Golovatov (1991-92), A.V.Gusev (1995-98), A.I.Miroshnichenko (1998-99), V.G.Andreev (1999-2003), V.N.Vinokurov (with 2003 on н.вр.)
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Y mas :)

The center of special purpose of FSB

The center is included into structure of Service on protection constitutional building and struggle against terrorism
The head – general-lieutenant Alexander Tikhonov, up to it - general-major Valery Andreev

Time МН » 23.01.01: « the department on struggle against terrorism includes the Center of special purpose consisting of groups " Alphas " and "Pendant" (former special troops of external investigation). Daily work of employees of group " Alpha " - neutralization of the terrorists grasping air and water vessels, ground transport, and also keeping hostages in buildings. At employees of "Pendant" - "nuclear" specialization: in a peace time - neutralization of terrorists on nuclear objects, in premilitary and a wartime their problem varies on opposite - they should destroy the atomic power station, rocket installations with nuclear warheads and other спецобъекты in territory of the opponent. However this specificity in present conditions in calculation does not undertake, fighters of "Pendant" are capable to operate and in the Chechen Republic ».

The base of the Center спецназначения is located in a Balashikha-2, an army part 35690. Contact phones: 523-63-43, 523-90-60. The center of preparation of group " Alpha " twenty five years carries the name "Surf". (the Source: Moscow Комсомолец 27.01.2001).

From interview With. I.Shavrina to " the Moscow News »:

- « Now in Management "In" four departments, in Management "And" – five. On one department from « And "and" In » constantly are in the Chechen republic (business trips from 45 day, two-rub times a year a minimum.). The department is an established post, the group is at the moment of carrying out of operation. In each assault group approximately on thirty person. All posts in operations sections-fighting of the Center спецназначения officer, but children who come after urgent service, without formation, Are enlisted by the order, and it appropriate a rank of the ensign. In the further if they will receive higher education, or any rates will pass, they receive the first officer ranks. The post оперуполномоченного is up to the captain, senior оперуполномоченный is a major, the chief of group, branches is a lieutenant colonel, the chief of a department and its assistants are colonel's posts.

For 2004 ЦСН has lost 16 employees: three during events in Ingushetia (one became the hero of Russia), in the Chechen Republic two at detention of the leader of insurgents which should be taken alive, one during attempt on и.о. The president of the Chechen Republic, and 10 in Beslan ». (List).

From the letter which have come to department Щекочихину in the New newspaper from fighters of group " A " (March 2004):





Management "And" ЦСН FSB Russia (Group " Alpha ")
The chief – general-major Vladimir Vinokurov, the assistant - the participant of liquidation of act of terrorism on Дубровке, the captain of 1 rank – O.Pilshchikov
(source)

It is created on July, 29th, 1974 under the initiative of chairman of KGB of the USSR of J.Antropov and the chief of the Seventh management of KGB of the USSR of general Alexey Beschastnogo. Till 1985 superconfidential division " Alpha " was in personal submission of the secretary general and a management of KGB. The full name of division till August, 1991 - group " And " of service ODP of 7-th Management of KGB of the USSR. Originally the quantity of employees did not exceed 40 person. It was completed basically from employees of KGB of the USSR which were have training special preparation and suitable on state of health to service in ВДВ.

Special-purpose designation of group " And " - struggle against terrorism, etc. "extremist" actions, which связанны with capture of hostages, vehicles, the state objects in territory of the USSR and abroad.

By the moment of disorder of the USSR totaled about 500 officers. (branches in Kiev, Minsk, Krasnodar, Ekaterinburg, Alma-Ata). At present in Moscow, not including three regional divisions (Krasnodar, Ekaterinburg, X Khabarovsk), serves nearby 250 person.

After disintegration of the USSR group " And " was included into Central administrative board of protection (ГУО) the Russian Federation. Among other problems, "And" till 1993 provided protection of the President of the Russian Federation. In 1993 "Alpha" has refused to storm the White house. In August, 1995 after the M. of Badgers has headed FSB of the Russian Federation, group " Alpha " has been transferred from conducting ГУО the Russian Federation in structure of Federal security service of the Russian Federation.

In 1998 Putin, during the stay of director of FSB, has recollected "Alpha". It has let out the order on " reorganization of managements " And "and" In ". According to it " with a view of reduction of duplicating structures in" the Alpha "and" the Pendant " staffs and management, and at the same time and divisions of maintenance - snipers, взрывники, communication were disbanded. The fighting groups which have remained in loneliness were reduced in " the antiterrorist center " Savostyanov's child, renamed in department on struggle against terrorism. There were messages, that as a result of reorganization about third of officers спецгрупп " the Alpha "and" the Pendant " have been compelled to leave service as the state does not have means for the maintenance of high quality experts on struggle against terrorism.

December, 1979 - employees "And" participate in storm of the Presidential palace of the President of Afghanistan Хафизуллы Амина. Three columns, on armored troop-carriers attacking have broken to a palace on fired road. Then attacking under dense fire have rushed into a palace. The result - the President of Afghanistan H.Amin has been killed. Was lost four attacking, from them - two employees of "Alpha": Dmitry Zudin and Gennady Volkov.
18.12.1981-Сарапул-захват hostages at school. Two armed criminals have grasped twenty five pupils.
02.031982 neutralization гр. Ushakov in territory of embassy of the USA armed by a self-made explosive
On November, 18-19th, 1983 – capture of plane Tu-134 in a of Tbilisi.

20.09.1988-clearing of passengers of plane Tu-134 grasped by military men of internal armies
1988 - group Jakshijantsa grasps the bus with schoolboys in a Миниральные of Water. Group " And " spends operation "Thunder": under the invitation of Israeli government " And " "met" terrorists in Tel Aviv and "has returned" them to Moscow.
13.08.1990-operation on clearing the hostages grasped in an investigatory insulator of Sukhumi

January, 1991 - group " And " participates in capture of the Vilnius television center. At capture the employee "And" Victor Shatskih was lost. According to former deputy head "And" Sergey Goncharov, Шатских has been killed by a shot in a back " from crowd ".
August, 1991 - during revolution the informal assembly of fighters of "Alpha" on which they have made a decision took place to not participate in storm of parliament of RSFSR. General-major Victor Karpuhin, the commander of group " And ", has denied versions about participation of its subordinates in events in Moscow and Форосе. It has declared, that " itself personally any orders from Крючкова did not receive and, accordingly did not carry out. The group worked in a usual mode ".
On October, 4th, 1993 - group " Alpha " receives the order on storm of the House of Councils of the Russian Federation (" the White House "). "Alpha" has arrived to the White House and the Russian Federation and defenders of a DB has entered negotiations with management ВС. Beaten on a meeting with deputies " senior lieutenant Serezha " promised to deduce all people sitting in a DB and to provide their safety. It also has declared, that " not their business to understand with political aspects of an event " At storm the employee "And" Gennady Sergeev who is born from a building of the wounded man was lost. According to fighters of "Alpha", the bullet which has got "альфовцу" between a helmet and бронежилетом, has been let out from an opposite building from the White House
On June, 17th, 1995 - group " And " participates in storm of city hospital in a Буденовске in which terrorists under direction of S.Basaeva kept more than 1 thousand person. During storm of a building of hospital employees "And" the officers Dmitry Burdjaev, Dmitry Rjabinkin and Vladimir Solovov were lost, fifteen fighters of "Alpha" have been wounded. The commander "And" A.Gusev regards actions of the division as a victory over terrorists since after actions of division Basayev " has let out without any negotiations of 300 hostages, actually in a situation there has come crisis, peace talks " ("МН", N44, on June, 25th - on July, 2nd, 1995) became possible. According to Gusev, the opponent during operation has lost ок. 20 person killed.
On September, 20th, 1995 - operation on clearing the hostages grasped in the bus. Terrorists demanded the helicopter up to a Makhachkala.
October, 1995 - fighters of group " And " have neutralized the terrorist who has grasped the bus with passengers on Васильевском descent in Moscow. At storm the terrorist has been killed.
The association of veterans of group is headed by the former assistant to the commander of group Sergey Goncharov. The press-secretary of Association – Dmitry Lysenkov.

Traditions of "Alpha":
Goncharov: « every year on December, 27th all of us we come on tombs of all our lost children and Day of memory is marked. The division has incurred the greatest losses in Budyonnovsk and Kizlyar. Five officers » there were lost.
THE MOST CONFIDENTIAL DIVISION OF KGB
ДМИТРИЙ КОНЯХИН
" An independent military review ". 26.05.2000 years
It is known to the inhabitant as "Alpha", however veterans-спецназовцы name it " Group " And "

July, twenty ninth, 1974 chairman of KGB of the USSR Jury Antropov has signed absolutely confidential order. On Лубянке it was created absolutely new, it is deep законспирированное division. Than it will be engaged, then knew a little bit especially entrusted officers. Have named it " Group " And ".

Today there are some versions of such decision: And - the first letter of the alphabet, from the same letter begins a surname of chairman of KGB of Antropov, And - anti-terror... It would be possible to result and other variants, one is obvious only - in a state security simply so did nothing. For example, 7 (operatively-search) management which structure included group, often named for brevity "НН", or "Nikolay Nikolaevich" (external supervision). Similar abbreviations till now meet even in official documents.
Conditions of selection of employees in group were extremely rigid. Not less than five years on operative work, faultless health, mental stability. Interview with candidates was spent by the major of KGB Robert Ivon. Later it becomes the assistant to the commander of new division. Eventually from several сот the person have chosen 30 most worthy - the first, become today legendary, structure of group " And ".

On September, 25th it have found the commander - the Hero of Soviet Union of frontier guard Vitaly Bubenina.
It was necessary to begin work with zero. Was not neither a secret apartment for accommodation of base, nor arms, curricula of preparation of fighters. Meanwhile for short term it was required to generate high-grade спецназовскую a command, is not worse German ГСГ-9 or American "Delta". That new fighting unit has somewhat quicker become independent, huge efforts were undertaken. Investigation delivered the necessary information, for development of special means and arms have involved the best scientists of the country. At full speed there was also a combat training. Yesterday's оперов learned to jump with a parachute, to drive бронетехнику, to float with an aqualung. And the main thing - during minimally possible time there were thought over techniques of clearing of hostages on vehicles, in premises, on objects of the raised ecological danger
Silently send, have silently taken and silently send away ", - instructors of fighters of group during doctrines playfully edified. Conspiracy was one of bases of their work. But first of all in group " And " learned to store an another's life. Even the terrorist, whenever possible, should be taken alive.

Sometimes it seemed to people, that study - end in itself of their existence. In November, 1977 the commander of group " And " has exchanged. Instead of come back on border Бубенина this post was borrowed with the employee of 7-th management of KGB Gennady Zajtsev who has served in division till November, 1988 Again by the commander of its group have appointed the decree of the president of the Russian Federation in 1992 Nowadays gray with age general which has given to group " And " of 13 years of a life, tells: "Name" the Alpha " was thought up by journalists in 1991 when us began to use for elimination of oppositional movements in the Soviet republics. Group "have lit", when the country leaders within several days refused our comrade Victor Shatskih who has lost in Vilnius. Hearings have then gone, that on a television center of Vilnius worked спецотряд KGB "Alpha". They have quickly got on newspaper strips, and the name has there and then removed from press to official documents. Veterans and youth prefer to name division still: group " And ". "Alpha" is more for the inhabitant ".

Group " And " has made the first fighting operation on March, 28th, 1979 in a building of embassy of the USA. Проникший here the terrorist demanded immediately to give the plane for a start abroad, otherwise threatened with explosion. On Antropov's command fighters have left on a place of incident. Negotiations with Jury Vlasenko so called the terrorist, it was necessary to conduct to Gennady Zajtsevu.
I at once have understood, that threat more than is real, and has tried to soften as much as possible its position, - it recollects. - then I was presented by the employee of a consular department of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. Conversation at us proceeded more than two hours, but, unfortunately, in what has not resulted. From chairman we have received a command to shoot at the right hand of the criminal. There was a hope, that it will unclench the fingers, compressed to the check. The sniper it is masterful has coped with a problem, but... Власенко all the same has started an explosive and has undermined itself. Fortunately, the bomb has worked partially (it consisted of several секций), and anybody, except for the criminal, has not suffered. So we have got experience, and long then assorted all our defects. However, then about us still nobody knew, and in press of anything about it state of emergency was not written "...
Anybody in group " And " then yet did not know, that in some months will burst Афган. Nikolay Berlev, the veteran of division, the participant of storm of palace Амина in Kabul on December, 27th 1979 г. speaks: " Duly a military science in that to fight to win to us it was almost impossible. The opponent repeatedly outnumbered us. A victory have gained strength of mind, have affected both long-term trainings, and fighting training. Then we have had the first losses... "

But not only similar actions are in the fighting annals of group " And ". Even today not many know that almost the last a quarter of a century its employees detained all spies. By development of similar operations prepared for any turn of events - from armed resistance before attempt of self-destruction of the traitor who has got in a trap. The staff of the operative chronicle of those years confirm stories of participants of events. Detention were spent artistically, quickly and silently, that in such cases especially important.
The eightieth years in history of the USSR were marked by flash of air terrorism. Today nobody will come in a head for departure abroad to resort to capture of the plane. Then for many the given step seem unique and true, let even thus to a life in what not повинных people danger threatened.

And again fight enter спецназовцы. Sarapul, Ufa, Tbilisi, Vladikavkaz. Arrest of instigators of prison revolt in Sukhumi. The group works irreproachably, as the Swiss hours. All goes without failures. A result always one - hostages are released, criminals are destroyed or neutralized. Many hundreds people only in many years have learned that are obliged by rescue to fighters of group " And ". In fact then its existence in every possible way tried to hide. The information in press was exposed to rigid censorship, and to understand, who releases hostages in so complex situations, it was simply impossible.
Happened during lives of division and heavy times. Group " And " tried to involve in struggle against objectionable political and nationalist movements, did of elite special troops of a world class frightened for opposition. In 1991 the group was a part of protection of the president of Russia. A problem rather honourable and responsible, but it is far not peculiar to division. And in Budyonnovsk and Pervomaisk its fighters tried to use as usual infantrymen. As a result - failure, vain losses.

Today the legendary division on struggle against terror which in people name "Alpha", was included into the Center of special purpose of FSB. Experts approve: again progress, again development. Recently one of fighters has told at a meeting: " When operation is completed, I test top of pleasure, to describe it it is impossible. Probably, something similar tested with new Russian when suddenly earn a heap of money... "
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Datos sobre la operacion, en cuanto a bajas, segun periodicos rusos:

According to official statistics, all in hands of insurgents there was 1251 hostage. 331 from them was lost (among them 176 children), 600 have received wounds. Also during storm 8 fighters of special divisions of FSB " Alpha " and "Pendant" and 2 employees of the Ministry of Emergency Measures were lost. 31 terrorist has been killed, one – is taken alive.
Temple

Mensaje por Temple »

Gracias Ia,

el traductor que estás utilizando está traduciendo "Вымпел" (Vympel) como "Pendant" (pendón o estandarte)!!! :lol:

Las bajas de "A" y "V" del TSSN (ЦСН en cirílico) del FSB fueron inicialmente 3 y 7, como he detallado más arriba (nombres y fotos incluidas); pero tengo entendido que un oficial que permanecía en estado muy grave (no recuerdo si perteneciente a "A" o "V") falleció ya en el hospital días después a causa de las heridas, por lo que las bajas totales serían 11.

Bajas sin precedentes en la historia de estas unidades! :cry:
JosephStern

Mensaje por JosephStern »

Respecto al asalto de Beslan. Segun fuentes rusas (oficial relacionado con fuerzas Vympel y Alfa). El asalto fue precipitado porque una de las minas colgada en una canasta se cayó y detonó ocasionando un autentico caos (a parte de muertos y heridos). Los rehenes presa del panico aprovecharon el caos para huir pero fueron disparados por la espalda y ante todo este desastre a los rusos que se encontraban en el exterior no les quedaba más remedio que entrar a la desdesperada para salvar a los que pudieran.

Esta información no se si es oficial puesto que se produjo durante una charla informal y puede que tan solo fuese una excusa (no puedo mojarme al respecto).

A ver si tengo tiempo y escaneo el escudo de la Vympel y la Alfa y los pongo en el post. Los escudos estan en una camiseta y una gorra asi que no se como quedrán al escanear. Son obsequios del oficial ruso y lo que mas me chocó es que la camiseta del Vympel está frabricada por Decathlon (al menos la etiqueta es de esa empresa). No sé si abrá Decathlon en Rusia o se las encargarán ¿?

Ambos escudos son muy similares y a la vez similares al de un reloj del KGB que ya me regalaron. Son realmente bonitos pero me parece una falta de creatividad, ¿no? :P

Saludos
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Si, el traductor, traduce Vympel, como Pendant :oops: y "A" como "And" y otras jeje, ni las traduce, como espetsnaz en cirilico..., el traductor no da pa mas! :dpm: Es k no he tenido tiempo de traudcirlo, pero un dia k tenga tiempo, buscare mas cosas! :lol:
QuickBasik_Geo

Para: Pocho Ibero

Mensaje por QuickBasik_Geo »

Para: Pocho Ibero

Post borrado.

Atentamente. Gracias
QuickBasik_Geo

Alfa

Mensaje por QuickBasik_Geo »

Si crees que porque lleven una pegatina con el simbolo " A " sean alfa estas muy muy ekivokado. En esa pegatina pone " Antiterror "
Osea la llevan TODOS los Grupos Spetsnaz del pais que esten en la rama AT.

El parche de los alfa es el que te pongo abajo:
Aunque creo que lo han cambiado otra vez...xD y al lao la famosa " A "

Imagen

Imagen Imagen


Tu te has liado porque ese parche los lleva el departamento Antiterror en general y claro esta los alfa pertenecen a el. Peo aki se ve ke llevan otro iwal peo cn el nombre Alfa escrito.. Diferencia...

Imagen


Claramente pone " Anti-Terror " El del perrito es un militar normal tmb...
Ademas en la foto de arriba .. en la que sale un francotirador con la gorra con la pegatina " A " es un policia.. lo pone claramente en su camiseta. Y El alfa pertenece al ejercito...

Luego yo nunca quise decir que ellos siempre se tapen la cara... Me referia a que ellos NO POSAN con la cara a una fotocamera sonriendo como se dice arriba. En acto de servicio en la ciudad de Moscu si llevan la etiqueta " ALfa " en la espalda. En Beslan no .

Ademas recuerda que porque en una revista ponga " los alfa despues de la entrada " no quiere decir que sea no sea un ekipo de apoyo. Los periodistas tmb mienten.
iaki

Mensaje por iaki »

Hey, jeje, no nos enfademos!! :P esto es un foro de discusion! :dpm:
El del perro si k es un miembro de la unidad Alfa!
El grupo "A" depende del FSB!
El ultimo parche k has puesto, es de la asociacion!
otra foto del mismo "del perrito"

Imagen
Temple

Mensaje por Temple »

Buenas QuickBasik_Geo,

¡no seas tan "agresivo" con Pocho Ibero!. Al fin y al cabo no merece la pena. Esto es un foto abierto y cada uno puede escribir lo que quiera. Si sus comentarios no superan la superficialidad e ingenuidad demostrada, pues que se le va a hacer ....

En relación a los oficiales del grupo "Alfa" y "Vympel" y antes de entrar en el tema de sus indumentarias, parches e identificación, su carácter civil o militar, etc. (lo de las caras no tiene mucho sentido seguir tratándolo), quiero comentar la cuestión de los nombres y abreviaturas de estas dos grupos, o mejor subdivisiones (como les llaman los propios rusos). Porque todavía creo que hay alguno que cree que son 3 unidades en lugar de 2 ….

Subdivisión “A” Alfa / АЛЬФА: “A” o “Alfa” – letra griega es la inicial de la “Alfa” / “АЛЬФА” (creo que aquí no hay confusión; porque en alfabeto latino y cirílico, “A” es “A”).

Subdivisión “B” Beta / Вымпел (Vympel): “B” leído como letra griega, ósea: “Beta” es la inicial de “Vympel” que escrito en cirílico comienza por “B” (su “B” en cirílico sería nuestra “V” de “V”ympel)

Las subdivisiones o grupos "Alfa" y "Vympel" no están bajo el mando o la organización del Ejército Federal Ruso. Están encuadrados en el FSB, es decir, en el Servicio Federal de Seguridad (Interior), es decir, dentro de una parte de las diversas agencias herederas del antiguo KGB. Por lo tanto son unidades civiles; aunque pudiésemos discutir sobre si sus medios, su entrenamiento, métodos y atribuciones (las misiones) son casi militares (p.e. ambos grupos operan desde mediados de los 90 en Chechenia).

Unidades especiales dependientes del Ejército en Rusia hay unas cuantas, como por ejemplo los "auténticos" SPETSNAZ, los Spetsnaz del GRU (inteligencia militar del Ejército Federal), así como otras unidades y grupos dependientes de las fuerzas del Ejército Interior (SpN OSN p.e.), o del MVD incluso (cuyas unidades tendrían un carácter más militar). El FSB no es una entidad militar. Quizás podríamos compararlo al FBI estadounidense y está claro que nadie considera al HRT como una unidad militar.

Volviendo a las subdivisiones Alfa y Vympel, a día de hoy, estos dos grupos están encuadrados en un Centro ubicado en las inmediaciones de Moscú, concretamente en Balashikha. Por lo tanto la Federación Rusa tiene centralizado el núcleo de fuerzas especiales antiterroristas en Moscú.

No obstante, la subdivisión “A” de dicho Centro cuenta con tres grupos regionales en Krasnodar (las razones son evidentes: Cáucaso), Ekaterinburg y Khabarovsk (supongo que por simples motivos geográficos, ya que de esta forma tienen una fuerza con la que responder en horas a amenazas situadas más allá de los Urales, en el caso de la primera y más allá del lago Baikal en el caso de la segunda)

Los rusos actualmente denominan a dicho Centro: ЦСН (en cirílico) que sería en nuestro alfabeto latino: TSSN y que se corresponde al acrónimo de "Centro de Própositos Especiales" (o de Operaciones Especiales si lo prefieres). Este centro pertenece al FSB y es relativamente nuevo, ya que fue creado exactamente el 8 de octubre de 1998 por iniciativa directa del aquel entonces jefe del FSB, Vladimir Putin. El TSSN actual sería heredero de estructuras similares previas, sobre todo aquellas presentes desde los primeros años noventa.

Supongo que cuando hablas del departamento "Anti-Terror" te refieres al TSSN, ya que claramente es el TSSN es la "central de operaciones especiales antiterrorista del FSB".

Si no es así, me gustaría saber que centro antiterrorista es ese al que te refieres y que unidades Spetsnaz lo integran.

La subdivisión “A” del TSSN está integrada por unos 200-250 oficiales en la actualidad (la fuente es un mando del TSSN en una entrevista). No recuerdo en estos momentos haber leído cuantos hombres formarían a su vez la subdivisión “B”; pero no deben ser muchos menos.

QuickBasik_Geo , es cierto lo que dices de que en algún caso la “A” en algún emblema o parche hace referencia a “Antiterror” en cirílico; pero no es menos cierto también que la “A” es parte del emblema de la subdivisión Alfa dentro del TSSN.

Como la cosa va de parches y emblemas, veamos parches y emblemas:

- A continuación, distintas versiones de los parches de hombro de la subdivisión o grupo Alfa:

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

(este último en su versión de baja visibilidad, como se veía en la foto anterior)

A parte de los anteriores parches, fíjate bien en el siguiente símbolo, porque según la Asociación de veteranos de la subdivisión antiterrorista Alfa es su emblema:

Imagen

Otra versión del escudo de la subdivisión Alfa, no del Centro TSSN:

Imagen

Siguiendo con los parches o emblemas, continuo con los de la otra subdivisión del TSSN. Vympel tiene sus propios parches de brazo, así como distintas versiones de insignias metálicas (tipo ping). A continuación dos parches de brazo del grupo “B” Vympel:

Imagen

Imagen

Un escudo de Vympel:

Imagen

Y para terminar con las insignias y emblemas, ahora los genéricos del Centro de Operaciones Especiales Antiterroristas del FSB (TSSN):

Imagen

Ciertamente, este emblema incorpora el escudo de la subdivisión Alfa. Supongo que una de las razones para que el TSSN lleve el mismo símbolo que el Alfa en alguno de sus parches, es que este Centro se ha constituido en torno a dicha unidad (que sería su núcleo básico). Vympel por su naturaleza está también dentro del centro; pero aunque de apoyo a Alfa en sus actuaciones, tiene otras misiones fuera del ámbito del puro rescate de rehenes; aunque también de naturaleza antiterrorista al fin y al cabo: como la protección de instalaciones estratégicas y nucleares, etc.

Más del TSSN:

Imagen

Imagen

Para el pecho:

Imagen


Por último, perdona que insista; pero en el teatro Dubrovka no he visto una sola foto con el rótulo Alfa a la espalda y aunque los oficiales Alfa no se muestren como modelos de pasarela, estos fueron fotografiados (en al menos 2 fotos de las que he posteado sobre dicha operación se les ve) y hasta fueron grabados en vídeo. Tengo dos documentales sobre la operación y en ambos se ve claramente a miembros de los grupos en la zona del patio de butacas entre las “viudas negras” neutralizadas. Por cierto, las imágenes son de la propia FSB / Fiscalía Rusa. En ninguna de las imágenes se ve a un operativo portando un rótulo tipo “ALFA” y se ven unos cuantos. Si lo viese me lo creería; pero mientras no.

¿Por qué?. Muy sencillo: primero porque precisamente por cuestiones de discreción, es mejor no pasearse con dicho rótulo por ahí y segundo porque existen más fotos de miembros del Alfa (sin posibilidad de error en la identificación, como por ejemplo, en frente del Parlamento en 1993) y no llevan dicho rótulo. Además cualquier rótulo o emblema con colores vistosos facilita la puntería del enemigo, frente a un uniforme adecuadamente mimetizado.

En cualquier caso, no dudo que en alguna ocasión hayan podido haber portado dicho rótulo, por lo que si tienes alguna foto, espero impaciente la misma!

Un saludo,

Temple

PD: Una foto de un sujeto! :dpm:

Un oficial de la subdivisión "A" (seguramente sin parches ni rótulos!!! :) ¡Es coña! :lol: )

Imagen

PD: QuickBasik_Geo, una pregunta!!!. Habías comentado que la unidad fue creada en 1969; pero toda la bibliografía o fuentes dicen al respecto que la unidad, que de aquella fue denominada algo así como: "Grupo Spetsnaz A del KGB" (traducción libre!), fue crea el 29 de julio de 1974, por iniciativa del director de la KGB Y. Andropov y el jefe del 7º Directorio del KGB General Aleksey Beschastnogo. ¿Qué tienes que decir al respecto?. Sobre todo teniendo en cuenta que aún se pueden encontrar por ahí los artículos del año pasado que en la prensa rusa aludían al 30 aniversario de la unidad (1974-2004).

PD2: Cuando tenga tiempo capturo algún fotograma de vídeo de la operación en Dubrovka.
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Farolo
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Mensaje por Farolo »

:evil: :evil: QuickBasik_Geo te recomiendo que rebajes el tono de tu discurso y no entres en descalificaciones personales.

Pasate por el apartado de reglas y leete las formas de Gran Capitan si deseas participar por largo tiempo en este foro.


Saludos
.-Nemo me impune lacessit
.-La estupidez también es un regalo de Dios, pero uno no debe abusar de ello. Juan Pablo II, pontifex.
.-Ladran, Sancho, luego cabalgamos...

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fae
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Mensaje por fae »

QuickBasik_Geo ha sido baneado, por favor seguir conversando con normalidad.
Ser oficial significa tener que estar en todo momento oscilando como un péndulo entre la Cruz de Caballero, una cruz de abedul y un consejo de guerra -teniente alemán 1945-
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Ramius
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Mensaje por Ramius »

Igualmente se ha procedido al borrado del post de QuickBasik_Geo por su contenido insultante para con otro forista.

Se puede estar de acuerdo o en desacuerdo con la opinión de uno de los contertulios, pero la administración de este foro no permitirá jamás el insulto o la descalificación como argumento.

Para discusiones y maneras tabernarias existen otros foros más tolerantes.

Se solicita tranquilidad y que siga el debate al mismo nivel que estaba antes de este desgraciado suceso.

Como es norma en este foro, si alguno de los foristas desea leer el post origen de este baneo, que me lo solicite mediante mp.

Saludos.
"Cuida tu foro, cuida tu ortografía"

TRIANA, puente y aparte
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Mensaje por Ramius »

Temple escribió:Si sus comentarios no superan la superficialidad e ingenuidad demostrada, pues que se le va a hacer ....
Temple, no caigas en la misma tentación del forista baneado. Una gran cantidad de nuestros compañeros son aficionados como tu y como yo, que están empezando y vienen a aprender del que sabe.

Si se atreven a dar su opinión y están equivocados, lo educado y lógico es hacerle ver su error mediante los argumentos necesarios y comprensibles para él. Insultarlo o avergonzarlo achacándole superficialidad en sus comentarios dice muy poco del nivel del que actua así y puede ahuyentar al afectado por miedo a hacer el ridículo.

Recuerda que lo que le da chispa a un debate es la pluralidad de opiniones y el deseo de demostrar tu teoría mediante argumentos incontestables.

Ponte en el caso contrario e imagina que alguien afirma que tu conversación es hueca ...

No trates a los demás como no desearías que lo hicieran contigo.

Saludos.
"Cuida tu foro, cuida tu ortografía"

TRIANA, puente y aparte
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Pocho_IBERO
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Mensaje por Pocho_IBERO »

Lo q no se es q he echo yo¿?
Cuando vayas por el campo
no pises las amapolas
que están sembradas con sangre
de guerrillas españolas
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Farolo
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Mensaje por Farolo »

Eso nos gustaria saber a muchos.

Olvidalo y a lo nuestro

Saludos
.-Nemo me impune lacessit
.-La estupidez también es un regalo de Dios, pero uno no debe abusar de ello. Juan Pablo II, pontifex.
.-Ladran, Sancho, luego cabalgamos...

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leonpro
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Mensaje por leonpro »

Temple escribió:
leonpro escribió:
¿donde esta esa opinion?puedes poner el enlace,porfavor
Leonpro,

la declaración del ex-primer ministro israelí la puso de ejemplo uno de los últimos mandos del grupo Alfa cuando en una entrevista para la prensa le preguntaron cual era el nivel del grupo Alfa en relación a otras unidades antiterrorisatas similares de primer nivel. Él constestó parafraseando a Benjamin Netanyahu.

Por cierto, que en una pregunta anterior, en la que le preguntaban que países tenían unidades al mismo nivel del grupo Alfa, el jefe del grupo en ese momento, contesta que todos aquellos países occidentales (los más industrializados) tienen niveles con una calidad semejante. En ese grupo estaríamos incluidos nosotros y por supuesto, con el G.E.O. y la U.E.I. entre los de cabeza!

Ahora no tengo a mano un link; pero la entrevista fue reproducida en diversos medios de la prensa rusa. Intentaré localizarla.

Un saludo,

Temple
gracias Temple :dpm: ,aclarado

si lo dice el señor Netanyahu,que seguro que sabe un rato de estas unidades :roll:


saludos
ImagenImagenImagen
Temple

Mensaje por Temple »

Ramius escribió:
Temple escribió:Si sus comentarios no superan la superficialidad e ingenuidad demostrada, pues que se le va a hacer ....
Temple, no caigas en la misma tentación del forista baneado. Una gran cantidad de nuestros compañeros son aficionados como tu y como yo, que están empezando y vienen a aprender del que sabe.

Si se atreven a dar su opinión y están equivocados, lo educado y lógico es hacerle ver su error mediante los argumentos necesarios y comprensibles para él. Insultarlo o avergonzarlo achacándole superficialidad en sus comentarios dice muy poco del nivel del que actua así y puede ahuyentar al afectado por miedo a hacer el ridículo.

Recuerda que lo que le da chispa a un debate es la pluralidad de opiniones y el deseo de demostrar tu teoría mediante argumentos incontestables.

Ponte en el caso contrario e imagina que alguien afirma que tu conversación es hueca ...

No trates a los demás como no desearías que lo hicieran contigo.

Saludos.
Ramius,

tienes toda la razón del mundo y sólo puedo decir que me arrepiendo y averguenzo de mi comentario en la medida en la que pueda haber resultado ofensivo. :oops::oops::oops:

Pocho_IBERO, ¡LO SIENTO SI TE HE MOLESTADO! Te aseguro que no es mi estilo.

Ciertamente, tus comentarios me parecieron desacertados; pero como bien ha expuesto Ramius, en lugar de descalificarlos directamente, debería haberlos rebatido con argumentos.

Por lo demás, como podeis ver por mi comentario anterior a QuickBasik_Geo su reacción ante la intervención de Pocho_IBERO me pareció totalmente fuera de lugar.

Pocho_IBERO, en cuanto pueda sacar algo de tiempo, intentaré rebatirte!!

:wink:

Un saludo,

Temple

PD: Algunas fotos:

1) Un conjunto de insignias y parches o emblemas que se vende en internet bajo el título de: "SpN FSB - Alfa" (en http://www.russiancombatgear.com para más señas):

Imagen

2) Dos fotogramas sacados de un vídeo de la intervención en el teatro Dubrovka en Mosú (Musical "Noreste"). He intentado capturar dos instántaneas en las cuales se aprecian miembros de lo que creo que es la subdivisión Alfa (uniformes negros, con parche de hombro y casco con visera), rodeados por miembros de Vympel (BDU camuflaje). Por lo visto, en dicho asalto (totalmente planificado y ensayado en un edificio similar en las horas previas, los operativos Spetsnaz del TSSN del FSB si que vistieron uniformes distintivos: monocromo negro o azul marino - "A" - frente a camuflado "B", incluso parecen portar algún parche de hombro como he intentado resaltar). La calidad es mala y se aprecia mejor en movimiento.

Imagen

Imagen

3) Dos imágenes (también de escasa calidad) de una visita de Boris Yeltsin a la base de la subdivisión Alfa en 1993. De aquella la unidad estuvo adscrita temporalmente a la Guardia Presidencial. Corrían tiempos difíciles en Rusia.

Imagen

Imagen
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Pocho_IBERO
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Mensaje por Pocho_IBERO »

Temple despues de haber visto lo q escribi me he dado cuenta de q me pase por eso quiero pedir perdon a quien alla podido molestar y a los grandes profesionales de los cuerpos rusos xq no soi nadie para descalificarlos de esa manera ellos hacen su trabajo y no puedo descalificarlos asi a partir de ahora intentare seguir el debate de cerca para poder enterarme de como trabajan lo grupos Spetsnaz :dpm: Como dice la gente rectificar es de sabio y solo se aprende a base de ostias :wink:

Saludos Señores Nos Bmo
Cuando vayas por el campo
no pises las amapolas
que están sembradas con sangre
de guerrillas españolas
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JIMBO
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Mensaje por JIMBO »

Buenas a todos, luego de leerlos,y buscar informacion al respecto, aun tengo la duda entre como diferenciar el Grupo Vimpel del Grupo Beta; se refiere al mismo grupo???, o uno depende del FSB y otro del MVD???, gracias de antemano por las respuestas
Saludos
"No es posible conducir exitosamente la guerra sin tener cerca buena inteligencia".
Duque de Marlborough
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Re: Esos Grupos Beta operando en Beslan

Mensaje por farre »

Rescato el hilo, para preguntar sobre los grupos SORB, que caracteristicas tienen ?son como los SWATS? Pero ala rusa

Saludos
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Re: Esos Grupos Beta operando en Beslan

Mensaje por alejandro_ »

Rescato el hilo, para preguntar sobre los grupos SORB, que caracteristicas tienen ?son como los SWATS? Pero ala rusa
Sí, son unidades pertenecientes al ministerio del interior. Las siglas significan Unidad Especial de Reacción Rápida. Ahora las funciones han pasado a la nueva Guardia Nacional.

Saludos.
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